The Collective - Drew and Vidoll - Masculinity Redefined
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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Collective podcast, curating a culture of continual conversations where faith, mental health, and courageous voices come together, creating a space for black men to address all of life's challenges with courage, faith, and community. It's also a front row seat for friends, family, and allies to listen, learn, and stand together because we.
Speaker 3: Are
Speaker: better together and stronger than
Speaker 5: ever.
Speaker: Let's get into it.
Coach Drew: Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Collective. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Blackwood, also known as Coach Drew. And on the Collective, we are talking about issues that impact us men from a spiritual, intellectual, emotional,
relational, psychological [00:01:00] point of view. And we're coming together because together we are stronger and
there's nobody that epitomizes this more.
V: There we go.
Coach Drew: More than my brother, V, I call him Vidoll Regisford. He's a registered psychotherapist and among many other things, he is my friend, he's my brother, and he is a mentor of mine. He is one of the most giving people that I know. Generous, maybe even to a fault, would you say .
V?
V: I don't know. It's up
to others to judge that.
Coach Drew: , I I, I, I want to talk about some issues today, but I also want to introduce him as a member of The Collective. So those of you who know me, . I am, a clinical counselor, a Christian parenting coach, and husband and father, and I look to this man to help me stay grounded.
I look to this man [00:02:00] when I, I need a counselor. The scriptures tell us there is safety in the presence of many counselors, and he is one of mine, and I'm grateful for him. So, . V please. Let the people know who you are, what it is that you're doing, and how you are serving people at this point in your life and career,
V: Man,
well, thank you first of all for the warm introduction, and at this stage, at this stage of my career I am really looking at continuing the work, but also creating a legacy within our community of other practitioners who are doing similar work that will be sustainable over a period of time.
Coach Drew: Hmm.
V: It's been, uh, quite the journey and I'm enjoying and continue to enjoy the work that I'm doing. I am blessed each and every day with individuals who still come back and believe I have value to give them, uh, and I'm able to make a living off of that as well [00:03:00] as those who come back and are not able to, uh, pay for the service, provide that as part of ministry and service to others.
So it is a good place. The clinic is busy. Uh, the associates are busy enough. , I'm tending to deal more now with complex cases, uh, cases that might involve not just the clinical need of the individual, but there may be a legal matter, there may be, um, other matters related to extended families, divorce, separation.
It may be as it relates to systems and structures, such as helping them advocate within hospitals or in school boards. Uh, so much more complex cases. And I think the years of experience that I've had in this sector has really helped me to be where I'm at. It's really about saving lives.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: Folks ask me, so what do you do?
[00:04:00] I save lives,
Coach Drew: I save lives. I'm a superhero,
V: so,
Coach Drew: oh my. So yeah, it's, uh,
V: it, it's, it's been really good to be at a place after, and I actually celebrated, uh, 40 years with my graduating class early this year in January.
Coach Drew: Wow.
So you, so you
start, you started when you were 10. Like
V: You're
kind. Too kind.
Coach Drew: Well, talk to me.
Talk to me V Like we know that based on what you've said, and I have history with you and I've worked with you, your career and your expertise, it spans the full gamut from, regular goals to critical life incidents like you are a critical debrief incident, uh mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Counselor and, and and person.
So when there are catastrophes, even for organizations like police, you go and you help these people. So you've seen pretty much everything. [00:05:00]
V: Yes.
Coach Drew: So my question to you is, what would you define as one of the biggest, maybe even most common challenges that men face based on your experience? Personal, professional.
: Mm-hmm. Is there a common, is there a most significant issue or matter that impacts men's mental, emotional and relational health?
V: It, it, it's a great question. , When I think about that, I go back to less about the, the what, which is their mental health. And we see that and the challenges with that. But I began to really ask the question, why?
Why? What happened? Where did etiology, as they would say, causality, where did things originate? And often, the one theme that tends to surface more and more for me is really about [00:06:00] men's idea of what it is to be a man masculinity.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
V: I think there are all these, you know, notions of what masculinity is that we've struggled with for decades, if not centuries, and recognizing that it hasn't really done us good.
So the need to be brave, to be the one that is ahead of everyone with the shield and the spear, protecting everyone. And not able to cry, not able to express intimacy. I would say fundamentally it is about notions of masculinity. And so when we begin to unpack that, we think about, well, where does a man learn to be a man?
So we recognize socialization. Recognize that there may have been mis modelings or maladaptive models of masculinity for men that have brought them to a place where when they think about their mental health, [00:07:00] they think, well, I need to be performing in this way. I need to be presenting in this way, because they haven't had models or examples, nor have they been socialized to understand,
it's quite acceptable to express deeply felt emotions, tears, to express in language that are not necessarily considered masculine language, such as feelings I feel I hurt, which is another revelation for me over the last six to eight months and this notion of what is male language and what is female language, and how that arises as part of our socialization, how we adopt that, and yet still it defines us in ways that we're not able to express
ourselves.
Coach Drew: So let, let, let me, let me double back here because I wanna make sure I'm understanding.
V: Yes, yes. You know, you know that we're gonna go all over the place, but we're gonna be
going somewhere.
Coach Drew: I think you're, [00:08:00] very clear, coherent as, usual. But I, I want to clarify something, because socialization, we're socialized as men to think that , masculinity. Equals what? Let's, let's spell it out. Typically, how does a man define manhood? What would you say is a typical definition?
V: My experiences with the men I've worked with would say men would see themselves as needing to be strong all the time. Never expressing emotions that are seen as feminine. Not at all showing signs of weakness, what they would consider weakness or vulnerability.
Coach Drew: Okay, so strong equals emotion- less.
V: Correct.
Coach Drew: Masculine equals invulnerable. Impenetrable. The opposite of strength
V: [00:09:00] mm-hmm.
Coach Drew: Is 'cause that would then mean the opposite of strength is then feminine.
V: Correct. Yes. Yes. So can you, and I don't want to look like I'm a female,
Coach Drew: right?
Female or, or less manly, but can you see how that definition automatically now puts women as weak?
V: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Coach Drew: That's, that's,
V: and that shows up in relationships.
Coach Drew: Terribly problematic. Terribly problematic.
V: Yeah.
Why is she cry? She's always crying. If I say this, she's crying. You know, what do I do with that?
Coach Drew: Right, . Or even worse, if you end up crying, then what does that say about you?
What does that say about your whole life experience? Like you're not allowed to be or feel vulnerable. But then how? How do you raise children like that? [00:10:00]
V: Right? How do you raise children? How do you engage in a relationship with the opposite sex, where tears might be a natural expression of emotions and a desire to connect?
Coach Drew: And, and what do you do when you feel, because you will feel as a human being. So what do you do with that if you're not allowed to feel that vulnerability or express it or show it to others or even to yourself? What ends up happening?
V: Yeah,
Coach Drew: when you're not allowed, when that doesn't fit the mold. What, what happens to the man?
V: Right. And, and, and I think it's important to say they believe it's not allowed.
Coach Drew: Right.
V: They believe it's not permissible.
Coach Drew: Right?
V: So what happens is not only does it affect their mind and their sense of wellness, but it also affects their bodies.
Coach Drew: Talk to us a little bit more about that. How physiologically does it impact a man's body when they [00:11:00] believe they're not allowed to feel or express emotions?
V: So let's, let's put it this way. There is an event that has occurred. It might be a loss of a friend, it may be a loss of a loved one, and the automatic thought is, I need to be strong. I need to be the one here that's showing strength. So I'm not going to express vulnerability. I'm not going to express this by way of tears.
Even though I may be feeling that way, I'm going to remain strong. Well, what happens within the body is this buildup of cortisol. Cortisol, if it's not released, goes directly to our organs. So we look at some of the ailments that are, are deeply entrenched in our community. Hypertension, diabetes, cardiac problems, which lead to stroke, kidney failure, and so [00:12:00] on.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: Now, it's not an instant. Event, but we know that the buildup and the harnessing of that energy, if I can say over a period of time
Coach Drew: mm-hmm.
V: Can lead to these kinds of illnesses.
Coach Drew: So there are physical ailments that happen at a result of repressing and suppressing emotions and not expressing them.
V: Absolutely.
Coach Drew: Can you give us an example of some psychological impacts of not expressing and releasing and sharing and showing those vulnerabilities and emotions.
V: Typically the, the psychological kinds of expressions are not necessarily conscious, they're subconscious, but they come out, they are expressed irritability, anger,
[00:13:00] isolation., For example. Just not wanting to be around folks. , Heightened irritability, and not knowing why, why, why am I feeling so irritable? Everyone else can see it. I'm feeling that way, but I don't know why. And often it's because those repressed emotions
have not been permitted to come out to be exhumed, so to speak, from the body and from the mind, from the consciousness. And so the build up of that manifests itself in this way. Or for example, anger in some instances, the kinds of aberrant behaviors that people engage in, consumption of alcohol, consumption of drugs, or even at times risky behavior.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm. Right.
V: So. When we think about the ills of containing what we are deeply feeling and not finding avenues [00:14:00] for expressing them, we also have to think equally that it's having an impact on us. No different than if I broke my leg, cut my leg, and decided not to get a stitch or a brace,
Coach Drew: right
V: not only will it impact my ability to walk and function, but it will affect affect my relationships.
Coach Drew: Yes. Yes. . You know, when you described or identified aberrant behaviors and your thinking about anger and a lot of the typical hyper masculine expressions that are permissible, if you will, , but we don't often see the quieter expressions and the quiet, silent impact of a lack of expression or familiarity with your
self and your emotions. Mm-hmm. So if we talk about that continuum of communication from aggressive, with assertive being in the middle, but then there's [00:15:00] passive. Mm-hmm.
And
passive aggressive. Sometimes we as men are very passive and we can live an anxiety ridden life because we are so unfamiliar with how to navigate uncomfortable emotions.
So we just let it pass. We just turn a blind eye, we stuff it, and then we end up just allowing things to happen in our lives, for example, we might feel embarrassed that we don't know something, and instead of asking for help being vulnerable enough and humble enough to ask for help, we're so uncomfortable that we just take whatever, whatever comes.
V: Right.
Coach Drew: We don't advocate for ourselves because we're so uncomfortable with that feeling of being vulnerable.
V: Mm-hmm.
Yes. Vulnerability is, , it's [00:16:00] essential. It's essential. And I I wanna get back to some of the other psychological but also physiological realities that men are not even aware of. And that is when they bottle up those emotions and conceal them, not only are there these physiological responses, one of those physiological responses, is there inability to function sexually.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: Lower libido, lower interest. And so their companion, spouses, partners wonder, what's happening? Well, that is as a result of these bottled up emotions that are not being channeled, not being expressed, and are coming through physiologically, the body gets lethargic, lacks energy, lacks drive. Mentally less motivated.
Mm-hmm. Less interested in doing things socially, what they used to do before and even present. And so, there is a [00:17:00] real need for men to recognize that when they're feeling, when they're experiencing deeply felt emotions. Equally important is it to find ways of exorcising. Mm-hmm. If I can say,
Coach Drew: right.
V: Those emotions
Coach Drew: get, yeah. Getting it out.
V: Get it out.
Coach Drew: , I like how we sometimes acknowledged both ends of the spectrum, , because sometimes the hypersexuality which is prized as a big part of masculinity can also be as a result of repressed and inadequately acknowledged emotions.
V: Mm-hmm.
Coach Drew: Right? Because to, to be prolific in our sexual experiences is often seen as like, yes, I [00:18:00] have, I have, I have power, I have control. You feel good, right? Mm-hmm. Often we opt and we cope to feel good in this area, overcompensating because we don't feel good in this area.
V: Other areas. Yeah. Yeah.
So, so I, so I, so I can show up.
I am a man here. I can show up here.
Coach Drew: Yeah. Yeah,
V: and not only is it my prowess, my physicality and the , physiology that drives that, but over here, mm, I'm not as at home.
Coach Drew: Yeah, at home, successful, familiar, comfortable, so I, I agree. V vulnerability, it's part of this cycle of intimacy and vulnerability, right?
When you stop becoming vulnerable, then you can't really be intimate. You can have a sexual encounter, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are being intimate, intimate. That's [00:19:00] intimacy about being known. It is about being vulnerable. It's not just about being strong. It's about acknowledging where my strength ends and where I have needs.
So, so talk to me. I know we, we, we've, we've been covering a wide, I told you that we part two and part three for this race. Well, because we are the Collective, we will keep talking. But if there is one thing. You could say to a man who could relate to what we're talking about, about the lack of comfort and familiarity with their own emotions and this idea that I'm not allowed to express it.
If he is open to changing that, if he's open to, , something different, what would you encourage him to consider and to, to try?
V: The first thing for me, and this is what I practice in clinic. Let's just acknowledge [00:20:00] that you haven't been doing a good job. Let's just acknowledge that and we can talk about the history.
We can talk about why we can do the multisystemic multi, you know, dynamic work that is part of all the psychodynamic work around the history and so on. But let's just acknowledge it because the evidence from loved ones friends, maybe even employers, is such that. I've been doing it, so let's talk with Agnostic first eight.
Then what I do is intentional. I affirm the worth and the value of this man to be human, to express and not to be guided by the judgments of others. You see, a good friend of mine, we always talk about judgment. If there's the one quality, the one [00:21:00] state of mind that human beings eschew they run from is this fear of being negatively judged.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: So getting him to a place where he's less concerned about how others will see him, but showing up authentically wherever he is and accepting and acknowledging that he's worthy of being seen for who he is and how he feels.
Coach Drew: Okay. So we have acknowledge, right? That is act, getting the feedback mm-hmm.
From other people, but then there's affirming, regardless of the cost or the negative opinions of others, yes. You can still affirm yourself as, as a, as a, as a person, as a man. Okay. And, and then what?
V: Action.
Start the work of, or practice of owning your emotions, [00:22:00] expressing how you are feeling. I, I have this exercise I go through with, with couples, and I'll share it with you briefly.
Men tend to, in this dynamic, male female dynamic, tend to feel in conflict while I'm not respected. And the moment he says that, the wife, girlfriend, may say, oh, what do you mean? I don't understand what you mean, how, how am I not respecting you? If we change our language, which has a conscious effect on the way we see the world and how we express emotions,
if he says, what you did, what you said hurt me, it made me sad, he spoke in a language that she could understand most of , those women have said to me, the first thing that I would do is I would apologize.
What would you do if you got an apology? I'm [00:23:00] not as angry, I'm not as frustrated anymore. I'd have been acknowledged. So this whole idea of language, when we talk about mental health is critical and we know from our work. There was a time we talked about people who were crazy.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: Right? We don't do that anymore because of the stigmas.
Right. So getting the individual to a place where they begin to act on those emotions that they're feeling , not holding them, and not harnessing them, but , exorcising, exhuming them, and expressing in those relationships. When this happened, this is how it feels. This is how it made me feel,
Coach Drew: V. Sorry, . V, I gotta interrupt here because that's a big ask. 'cause that's a big ask. That's a big ask. It's a big ask. Let lemme tell you
V: what's the risk?
Coach Drew: The risk. That's what, that's what I'm gonna tell you right now. Here's the risk, because I know you and I have done work with many couples and sometimes the risk is if you are [00:24:00] vulnerable, then that is used against you as a weapon.
Like, what do you mean you're hurt? I don't care if you're hurt, man up. Right? Yeah, man up. What does that do to a man who is actually being willing to try and be vulnerable? , For me, that is, that is one of the risks. How do you help someone to mitigate that risk? How do they know when it's safe to be vulnerable?
V: Be selective and seek out mature male female relationships. That is the bedrock, that is the foundation of good, healthy relationships. Am I, is that person, an individual who is emotionally and mentally mature?
Coach Drew: , It's true. And I, and I advise that too. I [00:25:00] have a list.
Of qualities, like how do you know if someone, because this is, this is actually quite new for a lot of people, how do you know if someone that you are engaging with is emotionally mature and is safe? Mm-hmm. What are some telltale signs that you would tell somebody to look for
V: Defensive.
Coach Drew: That's a good thing. That's a good, oh, so these are bad things. If somebody is,
V: these are bad things. So if,
if the individual is dismissive, that's one. If they're defensive, that's another. If the tendency is to blame or negate or minimize, versus, I hear you. I want to know more about what you're feeling.
Help me understand this. I may not have everything. [00:26:00] Please keep talking. I'm going to listen.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm. Those statements that you are sharing, those are examples of one of the healing communication principles that I share with people. And that one is really
V: about the book. You wrote, I gotta say this, the book you wrote,
Coach Drew: see it
it's,
V: oh, he wrote the book on healing Communication. Get it.
Coach Drew: It's, it's, it's important work, right? Here's the reality those are expressions of someone who is open. And openness isn't just about sharing a lot of information. Openness is also about being receptive. It goes both ways. Somebody who is receptive of your words, of your experience, of your perspective, and like you talk about unconditional, they're, they, they're, they're appreciative of your perspective.
V: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Coach Drew: So these are really good examples of things that we can look for.
V: But
would you not
say that openness [00:27:00] is, is learned?
Coach Drew: Certainly. Certainly
V: we, we have to unlearn our closed nature, our closed state and relearn, so to speak, what it is
to be open.
Coach Drew: Agreed, agreed. And it's not 100% either.
It's not all or nothing. Mm-hmm. Right. People are human. They will have moments when they're less open, when they're less receptive. So we don't want to present it as if safe people are always open and they're always receptive. Mm-hmm. But we want to pay attention. We want to observe ourselves and other people.
And I know I, I, I, I want to kind of bring this home because you and I can talk forever. So let, let, let's bring this home, we've been talking about the ideas of masculinity and how that is a challenge, and a particular challenge is not just what is a man, [00:28:00] but why do we think that manhood or masculinity is what it is?
: Mm-hmm. And one of those unfortunate definitions of masculinity is being invulnerable. Being impenetrable. And that's the definition of strength and, and masculinity. So what I'm hearing you say is if we are ready to step out of that frame of reference, the things that we can do, your three A's one.
Mm-hmm. We wanna acknowledge. Acknowledge. Yeah. Right. Acknowledge what, where we've gone wrong. Acknowledge what we feel, but then we want to affirm.
Affirm who we are. That's right. But then we also want to take action. Action. Absolutely. Okay. We wanna take action. We wanna be able to absolutely. Find safe people and express what it is that we're feeling.
Mm-hmm. So let me, and,
V: and I just say to you on that last question from before this, some relationships in this trajectory that we call life, [00:29:00] that we have to acknowledge, these are not people who I want in my life or who can help me, they may be relegated to a space that I just have a coffee with them, but they're not the kind of individual or individuals that I will sit and bear my soul.
But there are others who I have found and learned who are safe, that I can be my authentic self, that I can bear my soul, and they will embrace that. They will hold me in their bosom and all that I have experienced and tell me it's okay. They will lock arms with me and they will walk the journey with me.
Find those people they exist. Don't try and make someone into something they're not. As a good friend of mine, when he spoke to his mom about an issue was having with a [00:30:00] lady, his mom said this, of course, a wiser. And she said, son, why are you looking in the dark for what you can see clearly in the light?
And it was like, okay,
Coach Drew: right.
V: Don't look where you're not going to get fed. Don't look where your needs are not going to be respected or received. Find other places, even if it is professional. Even if it is outside of your normal circle.
Coach Drew: Tell me something.
Mm-hmm. I wanna ask this question before we wrap up because quite often the way that we engage with people in our adult lives are as a result of childhood experiences that haven't been healed or addressed, and.
Socialization we've been talking about, we [00:31:00] learn these things as children. We have these unpleasant experiences where we would have naturally shown emotion and we were, we're taught, we're shown that that's a bad thing. Don't do that. So let me ask you this, can you recall a moment in your youth, your younger years where something was communicated to you,
that led you down a path of ill health. And if you can, if you could go back to that moment, knowing what you know now, what would you tell your younger self?
V: One of the things that I would do is I would run to Jesus much sooner than I did.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: I think my faith in Christ has defined who I am and it, it has given me reason [00:32:00] and direction for living a life in a particular way in a particular man, and not perfectly, even though that word is overused.
And for those who are watching, no, I'm not there. I'm still practicing there are 10 Commandments. I'm at number two. Some of you might be number eight. Good for you. I'm at number two. I'm still working on this, but that has been central to my life.
I, I, I can't say I can specifically think of an example, but I do recall in my teenage years and as was said to a young man, there's a fork in the road, and he was a bit of a rebel. And he says, we all have to come to that fork and make a decision. And I was on the verge of making a decision and I could have, because I, I was one of those statistics that could have said, Hey, I'm gonna go with a bad way and I'm gonna justify it because of all of life's experiences.
I made a decision at that point in time that for me to be a [00:33:00] man who was fully functioning adroit, mature, responsible, that I had to take a different path, and I made that conscious decision to live a life that was going to put me on a path that would lead to success and stability to date. Vis-a-vis a path that would've led me to place where I would rationalize all kinds of behaviors that were socially unacceptable.
I made a conscious decision. It was indeed a crossroad. It was indeed a fork in the road, and I relied on healthy models of masculinity. To direct me on that path. And as I did, I found that there are people in my life that wanted to see me succeed and [00:34:00] progress.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: And they helped me along the way.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
V: And thank God at the ripe old age of 30, I've been able to go back that's a joke, I've been able to go back and say to those people, thank you, for being there for me.
Coach Drew: Yeah.
V: But it was more of a crossroad for me than anything else.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
V: I think the fear of God and my, my mother, secondly, God incarnate forced me to live a life that I'm not gonna do.
I'm not gonna do that. But as I entered into adulthood, it was about that fork in the road and making a conscious choice right.
Coach Drew: So what I'm hearing you say is as you look back, it wasn't just a particular comment or a moment with somebody, but you can remember this, this fork in the road, and it sounds like in retrospect what was of great value was the wisdom to say, you know what?
Make a decision, [00:35:00] That means following Christ, being sure to
V: absolutely
Coach Drew: not embarrass your mother, right? Not incur the, the wrath of your mother or God. But also as you make this decision, know that there are people who will help you. There are people who will support you. There are people
V: absolutely
Coach Drew: who will love you and care for you.
V: Absolutely, absolutely. Look mm-hmm. In this life. We are either running from something or running to something. The hope is that on either side we are rescued. Our past is never too far from our present. And so whether it be skeletons or ghosts, no matter where you are, they're still present, but we get to define the path forward.
A conscious, mature thought, well, thought out direction about how we wanna live our lives.
Coach Drew: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. [00:36:00]
V: That
inalienable right to make good sound judgment is still mine. Nobody takes it away from me. I do that as well as making bad decisions.
Coach Drew: Yeah.
V: So you're absolutely correct. Central to my life. It's been my faith journey.
And that has defined who I am, what I am, and where I'm going.
Coach Drew: Nice. Nice. , So much appreciated. I always love speaking with you. I learn new words when I speak with you, , but I also learn more and more about who you are as a, as a, as a man, as a practitioner, and as a believer. So I'm, I'm grateful for you and your company because you have been one of those people who I have
come to when I am not sure if I've made the right decision or after I know I've made a, a [00:37:00] wrong decision, right? Mm-hmm. Because we're not perfect. We will make mistakes. We will fail, we'll make wrong choices. However, there are people in our lives that are safe, that are mature and maturing that we can go to.
Well, um, we didn't get to one of my favorite questions. So we'll have to come back to it. In fact, we'll probably do it on
V: part two, part three
Coach Drew: on my other podcast from failure to Fulfillment, because I wanna know how you've failed. I wanna know some specifics about decisions that you've made that you're like, hmm.
If I could do it over, I wouldn't do it again. So we will come back to that conversation another time. But I want to say thank you everybody for, for joining us, for hanging out with us. I want to know your thoughts about socialization. How do you define masculinity? Now, whether you're a male or female, you're welcome to share your thoughts, [00:38:00] but until next time, know that we are better and we are stronger
together and this is the Collective, and we'll talk to you on the next episode. Bye for now.
Thank you, my brother.
